And also about how Bialiatski went "on his own" from the army to sign;

how her father was against marriage with an oppositionist;

how she felt that Bialiatski was forgotten until it became known about the Nobel Prize.

Briefly

• There were many editions of the Nobel lecture.

  At first, the files were named differently, then I started numbering them, and in the end there were 17 versions of the speech.

• Their band "Baski" came from Goml to play at my cousin's wedding, and there I met Ales, who was a guitarist at that time.

• His act turned my ideas about Ales upside down.

  He risked a lot for me.

• My father did not approve of my desire to marry Ales: "Do you want to go to Siberia for him?".

• He is in isolation, probably felt the isolation in prison even more than I do here.

  And to a large extent, this award was a shock, because I had already come to terms with that role of oblivion and, to a certain extent, inattention.

"This is a collective work - there were about five editors who helped"

- Natalya, many Belarusians could not hold back their tears while listening to Ales Bialiatski's Nobel lecture from your lips.

These were tears of pride and pain.

People admired the honor, dignity and endurance with which you conveyed the voice of Ales, the voice of the political prisoners of Belarus, the Belarusian voice to the whole world.

How did you feel on that podium?

- Great excitement and great responsibility.

The speech was the most important moment in the whole ceremony, and therefore I had to gather all my strength, all my nerves, not to give myself the opportunity to get lost and to be able to convey to the people Ales' thoughts, his experiences, his pain for the people of Belarus, for what is happening in Belarus now .

- Tell me, please, how the speech was prepared.

Observers call her flawless.

How long was it written?

How many editions were there?

Did you consult with friends, associates of Ales?

- You can say that first of all.

This speech is made up of quotes from Ales, these are his words, his speech, a speech he actually wrote, although it was not directly transmitted to be read at this ceremony.

In general, this is a collective work.

There were about five editors, those who helped.

It was difficult to compile it and take into account conflicting opinions on certain points of the speech.

In the end, we found an agreement, a mutual understanding, and the final edit resulted in what you heard.

There were many editions.

At first, the files were named differently, then I started numbering them, and in the end there were 17 versions of the speech.

— 17 options!

And what didn't get to her in the end?

- It was necessary to be on time.

There were different versions of the statements, now I won't say exactly which ones.

I am very grateful to those who critically approached this material, who made comments, who put up with the comments of others.

In the end, we managed to do all this together, with joint efforts.

Not much was included.

You understand what Ales' legacy is.

He gave many interviews, he has many books, there are many video materials.

A lot of work was done to study all this.

We started on November 20 or a little earlier, and we had to finish by December 1.

It was a stressful enough situation to be on time and pass on time.

- You talked about the great literary heritage of Ales Bialiatski.

Radio Svaboda managed to publish the book "Ales Bialiatski on Svaboda" before the ceremony and even hand it over to you in Oslo on the eve of the ceremony.

The Nobel speech was compiled from the earlier texts of Ales Bialiatski, but there were also words that he said to you during the meeting.

What were those words?

- These are the very first words after I said "And now I will pass the word to Ales."

There he mentioned all the human rights defenders - from Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, and other countries, he named the specific surnames of the human rights defenders.

"We are all brothers and sisters," he said.

He remembers everyone, he does not forget, being in prison.

Through the first two main paragraphs, he conveys the message that this award is for all Belarusians.

This is an assessment of the struggle and activity of Belarusians, not only human rights defenders, which Belarusians demonstrated especially vividly in 2020.

This is a message about the fact that Belarusians cannot be forgotten, because they are in a very difficult situation.

And we are all brothers and sisters, and the merit of this award belongs to all Belarusians.

This is the main message.

As for the other thing, it's wonderful that there were statements that characterize the current situation in Belarus, with prisoners in prisons... Do you remember his phrase that it's hell on earth?

All this made it possible to make a speech that would touch on all the painful issues related to Belarus.

- We do not know for sure whether Ales Bialiatski knows about how the day of December 10 passed in Oslo.

Did he get the information about how it all happened?

- Unfortunately, I don't know.

I don't think the official media said anything about it.

It is very difficult to get an independent press in prison.

I don't think he knows anything about it.

"Loev is the best place not only in Belarus, but also on earth"

- I really want our audience to learn more about you - the wife of Ales Bialiatski, who presented the voice of Belarus to the whole world.

You were born in Loev.

Tell us about your family, about your childhood.

- I was born in Loyevo, it is the best place not only in Belarus, but also on earth.

It is clear that for all of us the places where we were born are dearest, but Loev is more beautiful than all of them.

The confluence of the Sozh River with the Dnieper, where it is located, is a very picturesque place that inspires admiration in everyone who comes and sees Loev, that nature, those steep banks on which our village stands.

As for the family... I was a late child.

There were three children in the family - a sister, a brother, between whom I had a difference of 14 and 13 years.

To this day, unfortunately, my relatives are no longer there.

I was the only one left in our family.

As for my life, it probably repeats the life of many women.

Born, grew up, childhood, adulthood.

She graduated from 8-year high school, then secondary school, Gomel University, where she received her education and majored in "Historian.

Teacher of history and social science" - so it is written in the diploma.

Family, life.

Everything is as usual.

"Most of my life I speak only Belarusian"

- When I was preparing for the interview, I asked one person who knew you when you were young when you started speaking Belarusian.

And he answered me that he did not know when you spoke in Russian.

When did you speak Belarusian?

Natalya Pinchuk at the presentation of the award named after Francisko Alyakhnovich (receives the award for Ales Bialiatski)

- I started to speak Belarusian well when I was already studying at the university.

Before that, she graduated from a Russian school, where she studied the Belarusian language for several hours a week.

At the university, almost everything was taught in Russian.

Starting from the university, I tried to switch to the Belarusian language.

It turns out that I speak only Belarusian for most of my life.

I had small moments in my life when I only spoke Russian.

Now I also had to, but then, mostly, when I worked with foreigners.

- So you switched to Belarusian even before you met Ales?

- No.

Here I must acknowledge the influence of Ales.

He didn't force me.

Definitely.

It is impossible to imagine that Ales forced.

But I gradually got to know the language, remembered my grandmother's language.

It was interesting and pleasant for me to talk in my own way, in Loevsk, or even in my grandmother's language.

When I started studying history, I realized how unfair historical fate was to Belarus, to Belarusian history and to the Belarusian language.

Especially if we recall the moments connected with Russification and what it has led to today.

Unfortunately, this is well known to us.

This caused a protest.

And I understood that I should do everything possible to return justice to our land.

"Ales went into a frenzy, came to me, and we tried to find an opportunity to quickly sign"

- How did you meet Ales?

What was the first date like?

I was told a story about how you wanted to sign quickly, because Alesi had to go to the army, but it didn't work out...

- There was such a story that still scares me.

But let's start first.

We met at my cousin's wedding.

He studied together with Ales at the Faculty of History and Philology (his brother studied history, Ales studied philology).

Their band "Baski" came from Goml to play at my cousin's wedding, and there I met Ales, then the guitarist.

Further fate was such that we steadily met in one place or another: we worked together in the pioneer camp, then I entered the university, we studied together for one year (he was graduating, and I was still in the first year).

Why am I still afraid to mention the story with the army?

Ales could get into a very unpleasant situation.

He served in Sverdlovsk, beyond the Urals.

And it was necessary to transport some equipment from the European part to the Urals.

They traveled with this equipment near Belarus.

And Ales became a lone wolf, for which he could end up in court.

Agreed as much as possible and came to me.

And we are trying to find an opportunity to sign soon.

We had to wait two or three months.

They were looking for acquaintances.

Tatyana Dubavets tried to make an agreement in her village.

There it was somehow easier to sign up for marriage.

All efforts did not lead to anything.

It didn't work.

But it was not so terrible, because I was most afraid that Ales would be late for the return train.

He made it.

But his act turned my ideas about Ales upside down.

To this day, I remember him and understand that he risked a lot for me.

This is a memory for a lifetime.

- And when did you finally manage to sign?

- Already after the army, in a calmer atmosphere, we did it.

There was no wedding as such.

There were only us and our witnesses.

Everything.

- You have a very beautiful last name, Ales too.

And you decided not to take your husband's last name, which at that time not many women did.

Why?

Natalia Pinchuk

- It's hard to say.

Maybe the family history had a little influence here.

And Ales was not against it.

It so happened that the mother's maiden name was Pinchuk, and the father also had the surname Pinchuk.

It was natural for me to carry on my paternal line by surname.

And Ales agreed with this.

"We signed only with the blessing of the mother, the father was later put before the fact"

- They also say that your father was a high boss, and that he was not happy at first that you were marrying an "oppositionist".

What was the conflict at that time and how was it resolved later?

- Father was against it.

He was a member of the Communist Party, quite active, he was the second secretary of the district committee in his time.

I shared with my parents what kind of boyfriend I have, what we talk about with him.

And my father heard very well what Ales and I were talking about.

One day, he brought from the district committee evaluations of what kind of organization "Tuteyshiya" is, what kind of "Talaq" it is, and so on.

"Read it, think about it," said the father.

I read it.

I myself was already in "Talac" and knew about other organizations.

My father did not approve of my desire to marry Ales.

"You want to go to Siberia for him," he said.

There was a Soviet Union then, remember, where they sent all those who were not wanted by the authorities.

My mother knew about the wedding, but I decided not to hurt my father, to tell him sometime later, after he has come to terms with this situation.

So we signed only with mom's blessing.

The father was later brought before the fact.

- Father was right in some sense.

Not to Siberia, but your husband was a political prisoner more than once, had a difficult fate, and you were always with him.

And they don't send us to Siberia, because we live in independent Belarus.

— Yes, now Belarus is independent.

Thank God, they will not be deported, but Belarus is now not less than Siberia.

Father was right, he was worried about me, about his daughter.

Everything happened as it happened.

Everything is as it is.

- In your speech, you quoted Ales' words that he understood the criminal essence of the Soviet government very early and did not accept it.

I understand that you were in informal Belarusian organizations even before the collapse of the Soviet Union.

How quickly did you, who grew up in the family of a member of the Communist Party, understand the criminality and anti-Belarusian nature of this system?

- Pretty soon.

The fact that I studied at the history faculty helped me understand the situation very quickly.

Even though my father was a communist, he was an idealist who always stood for justice.

This very often brought him many troubles.

His party ticket was also taken away... This feeling of justice in our family was embedded in me as well.

This policy did not provide an opportunity to study the true history of Belarus.

The policy of de-Belarusization caused me strong disapproval.

To a great extent, this made it possible to join all the movements and activities that existed at that time, accepting them wholeheartedly.

- What was your first job?

How did the career progress?

What was your professional ambition?

- It just so happened that I started teaching.

I will not say that this was particularly my choice, so there is no need to talk about ambitions here.

By the will of fate, I became a teacher.

She graduated from school and university.

The first work was on distribution in Kalinkavitsky district in the village.

Then she worked in a lyceum, then for a long time in Minsk in other institutions.

"I shared and share his views"

- For decades, Ales was in the center of attention of independent media - through his work, public activities, through arrests, imprisonment.

You have always stayed in the shadows.

Was it your conscious attitude or did it just happen that way?

- It seems to me that this is a natural state of affairs.

An active position, a lot of work, final work, was done not by me, but by Ales.

I should not be in the first roles here.

This is a natural situation for me.

I did not see her differently.

- But I understand that his work and activities were also your life.

Did he share problems, worries, disappointments?

- Yes.

We always discussed this together in the family.

I shared and still share his views, we consulted each other about what and how to do.

I was always aware of his affairs.

He was always independent in making decisions.

Another thing is that sometimes it seemed to me that he was working on me, coming to the conclusion of how right he is in making this or that decision.

Now I can't find an example.

And I do that myself.

We very often consult with other people in order to talk about the situation, to better understand it for ourselves.

This moment of speaking in our family was quite important.

We talked, and each of us made a decision.

We never pressured each other.

This was a discussion for myself.

- Have you ever told him or just thought inside - why all this, decades of sacrificial thankless work...

2011 Natalya at the presentation of the book "One Day of a Political Prisoner 2009-2011"

- This did not happen for the simple reason that I understood the correctness and necessity of all this.

As I acted naturally in my life, so Ales acts naturally in his.

What he always did was absolutely right.

I did not have such thoughts.

Another thing is that this time I caught myself thinking that maybe I should have stopped him in some way or insisted more that he leave.

But I did not insist on this, because I understood the correctness of his opinion on this matter.

And here I feel, maybe somewhere guilty.

"We understood the reliability of a woman's shoulder"

- What were the almost three years of Ales' imprisonment from 2011 to 2014 like for you?

What and who helped to hold and support him?

- At that time, it was a strong support of relatives, close people, friends, whose circle was formed then.

A circle of female friends, relatives, whose loved ones were in prisons.

It was such a strong support, such a strong connection that we did not lose our friendship after Ales was released, as their relatives were released.

We understood the reliability of this shoulder, the reliability of a woman's shoulder.

Someone says that there can be no friendship between women.

In this case, I want to say that men can envy it.

We have a strong and reliable friendship.

It has survived since then and now helps me survive even in these conditions.

"Not only Ales is in prison, the whole of Belarus is sitting now"

- Ales and his associates have been behind bars for a year and five months.

What has changed for you compared to that period of time?

- Times are tougher now.

Then there were fewer residents.

There was more attention.

Ales received a lot of letters from abroad, and he sent them back to me in large special packages.

Now the situation has changed.

Not only Ales is in prison, the whole of Belarus is sitting now.

As Ales said: yes, all of Belarus is a prison for today.

And I explained to myself that the attention was distributed among the other sitters: everyone needed a word, help, and support.

But to a certain extent I felt such forgetfulness of him.

Few people wrote to me from abroad, but I was told that many letters of support came to him from all people - both from Belarus and from abroad.

But the prison authorities did not give him all this, he did not send me a single package of these letters.

In essence, he is in isolation;

he probably felt the isolation in prison even more than I do here.

And to a large extent, this award was a shock, because I had already come to terms with the role of oblivion and to a certain extent inattention, if you can say so, and here is this award!

And I understood that they had not forgotten.

What is remembered, and this attention is still there.

Another thing is that this support does not reach Ales himself and is not heard as loudly, with such an accent, as it sounded before.

- May I ask you whether the authorities set certain conditions for you before your trip to Oslo?

- There were no direct conditions dictated by the government.

They could read each other, they could understand each other, but it didn't sound right.

"There is no need to talk about further plans, we have learned during this time in Belarus to live one day at a time"

- What are your intentions, plans, anxieties after the Nobel lecture?

Natalia Pinchuk

- There is no need to talk about future plans.

During this time in Belarus, we learned to live one day at a time.

No plans, because you don't know what will happen this day or the next.

We just act according to the situation.

It is difficult to say what will happen next.

I will go step by step, solving one or another problem.

- You avoided publicity, but now you are forced to be the voice of Ales, the voice of the Nobel Peace Prize laureate from Belarus.

How do you feel about this responsibility now?

- I consciously avoid the public.

I am not completely comfortable in such roles.

Another thing, I understand how important it is to have a conversation with journalists at such critical moments, to publicly voice the problems of Belarus.

It is important that Belarus is heard, that Belarus is remembered;

to remember each of those who are in prison, to know their problems, to hear the voice of Belarusians from behind the bars, and to show solidarity for Belarusians in full.

"Save yourself first and it will help save your loved ones"

— Thanks to Belarusian human rights defenders, who monitor the repression in the most difficult conditions, we know the scale of the repression, but it is far from complete.

The authorities are trying to do everything to keep the relatives and friends of the detainees silent.

The case of political prisoner Dasha Losik, who fought for the release of her husband, a political prisoner Ihar Losik, is a harsh signal to the relatives of political prisoners.

What is your position - what can relatives of political prisoners do for their loved ones when they are in Belarus, and what can they do when they are abroad?

- As for the native political prisoners who are in Belarus.

As much as possible, you should preserve yourself, your health, take care of your strength and direct both strength and health to support your loved ones.

Like in a plane.

If an unpredictable situation happens, the mask is first put on not the child, but themselves, because only living parents can save their child.

The situation is the same here.

Save yourself first and it will help save your loved ones.

You will be able to bring shows, write letters, and that will be the biggest support they expect.

The fact that you are healthy and somewhat safe for the time being will also give them peace of mind and the understanding that you are all right.

As for the Belarusians, who are now safe and can very actively raise their voice in defense of the rights of Belarusians who are oppressed by the authorities... It is very important that you knock on all the doors abroad, that you demonstrate your voice publicly.

In Oslo, I saw how active Ukrainians are, how active Iranians are, who gather every day near important buildings in Oslo and declare the plight of their people.

Belarusians do the same thing, I observed.

And they are very grateful for this, as well as gratitude to all people and structures abroad who support Belarusians both abroad and inside Belarus.

"I really understand Svetlana's pain, because her husband is also behind bars"

—

Natalia Pinchuk.

- I think that the role of wives is very important.

I really understand Svetlana's pain, because her husband is also behind bars.

I understand how brave she needs to be.

With two children, with the mission that I am fulfilling, the mission of the president who received the majority of votes.

I have a lot of respect for her in this role of hers, in this strength of hers that she shows.

Thanks to her, we hear the voice of Belarus and Belarusians.

This is very important.

In this sense, the role of women is important, difficult and necessary.

- How do you celebrate Christmas in your family?

What will happen this year?

Will Ales somehow be able to celebrate this important spiritual and family holiday behind bars?

- We were going as a family.

Various funny adventures took place at the Christmas table.

The last years were mainly celebrated by the two of them.

Now (and not the first year) we will celebrate this holiday not together.

I think he will find some opportunity to celebrate this holiday in the cell where he is.

I will celebrate this important holiday with my friends.

Other people become family, and thank them for the warmth they give.

• Anna Sous

  Journalist of Radio Svaboda

  Editor of the "Only women" community on Facebook 

  sousa@rferl.org

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