They talked with the musician about the war, music, the new Belarus and why he doesn't like politics, but became a member of the Coordination Council.

"I moved to my listener"

- In a fairly short period of time after leaving Belarus, you have already made a concert tour in the cities of Poland, the USA, played concerts in Lithuania, Israel.

Is life in exile getting better?

- I don't think that I am in exile.

I have been here since April 16 - 8 months already.

When you emigrate, you try to settle in a new country forever, to integrate into society.

I can call my case a work relocation, because I am comfortable where my listener is.

My listener is probably not Poles.

My listeners are Belarusians who came here, they are the most conscious people who are clearly against the war, clearly against Lukashenka's regime, clearly do not support Russian imperialism.

And I moved to my listener.

I play concerts for them, organize tours - in short, I came to Poland to work.

Vladimir Pugach, archival photo

Most of our listeners probably stayed in Belarus.

I really miss them, but now we don't have the opportunity to play concerts in our homeland.

When you emigrate, you first learn Polish in order to integrate.

I still can't convince myself that I will need it.

I am convinced that I am here temporarily and everything will change soon.

I will be back soon.

- What was the last straw, why did they leave Belarus?

- War.

That is the war!

We had a concert planned for Valentine's Day in Kyiv.

And on February 13, we traveled on our bus from Belarus to Ukraine.

We were not missed, the organizers had many problems with the canceled concert.

- But didn't you have a premonition of the same war 10 days before the start?

- Well, we lived in Belarus, we knew that there were Russian tanks and equipment.

And when we were driving towards the Ukrainian border, we were driving along these chains of tanks, armored vehicles, which were also moving in the direction of the border.

The feeling is very unpleasant.

We have been following this for six months, but everyone said that there will be no war!

Supposedly, they will "play a game of war" there during the exercises - and that's it.

And we all had this feeling, but it was very unpleasant to see all this.

When the war started, I first made an appeal on my Instagram.

The meaning is as follows: "Belarusians, dear people, do not get involved in this war!"

Many famous people recorded videos in the early days: they all had black faces!

Everyone was scared, everyone was in shock!

- But you got into a very difficult, unfavorable period - when thousands of Ukrainians were forcibly evacuated to Poland after the start of the war.

And before that, many Belarusians who were repressed came here.

Was it difficult to adapt in Warsaw?

- I have here my closest friend from Belarus, with whom I have been friends for 30 years.

In 2020, he worked in Viktor Babarika's headquarters and was picked up literally a day before the elections - on August 8.

He ran away, we hid him for two weeks.

He managed to leave for Warsaw, he has been here for almost two years.

And a friend met me, helped me adapt.

For a while I was "gypsying", but then I found a place to live.

After all, going nowhere with one suitcase and a guitar is such an adventure... The band did not come, because everyone has their own circumstances, children, families.

And my daughter also lives here.

I started with solo concerts.

He toured Poland in the summer.

In autumn - in the USA, then there were Vilnius, Israel.

These tours are more for Belarusians.

Vladimir Pugach

— But J:Mors is a very popular band that once gathered the large hall of the Palace of the Republic, Prime Hall.

Is there a difference between playing for a large audience and doing chamber concerts?

— Yes, the audience is now 10 times smaller than in Belarus. I could choose: either do nothing, or play concerts for a smaller audience.

Of course, I play concerts here for Belarusians.

And the audience is small.

But now I have no prospects in Belarus - zero concerts for zero Belarusians.

"I don't regret for a moment that I was part of the Coordination Council"

- Were there "bells", warnings, hints that it was time to leave, otherwise there could be worse consequences?

You were even in the main composition of the Coordination Council?

- Well, what bells?

We were prevented from playing concerts, I was called to the Investigative Committee.

In 2021, we managed to hold a few concerts, but we were followed by "Kadebeshniks", sitting in the hall.

And then, when we wanted to continue the tour in Belarus, some "technical" problems appeared at all venues, we were simply not allowed to play concerts.

- You always say that you don't really like politics.

And how did you get to the Coordination Council then?

- Not "not very", but I don't like politics at all.

I considered the Coordination Council as a kind of civil movement, and not as an environment of professional politicians.

These were people who, for the most part, like me, reacted emotionally.

It seemed to me then that I was obliged to do something, to help this movement.

But we got what we got.

I do not regret for a minute or a second that I ended up in the Coordinating Council.

Vladimir Pugach

- Did you personally meet with Viktar Babaryk, with Maria Kalesnikova?

What are your impressions?

- Yes, I met both Babaryka and Kalesnikov - very nice people, I visited their headquarters before the elections. Besides, my closest friend worked with them.

I came to the meeting, they found time, we had a very nice talk.

It was very important for me to decide which of the candidates to support.

After that meeting, I decided to support Viktar Babarika.

But we all know what happened next.

At that time, no one could imagine how cruel and merciless the regime could be, the violence he was willing to go to in order to protect himself.

No one imagined!

"Circular warranty blows like soot"

- In your opinion, what was it, why did it happen?

Nobody seems to have imagined that there are so many security forces in Belarus that they will act so harshly against their own people.

Even at first, people said that it was not the Belarusian security forces, but the Russians, that, they say, the Belarusians could not act like that.

- Could have been.

These were our Belarusians.

It was the fear of losing everything.

Lukashenka had to defend himself and his power, and they were allowed to do whatever they wanted.

There were cases when some cosmic money was paid to them - in the months when there were protests.

So it was.

- Well, it's okay, OMAP, GUBAZiK.

Heads that break a brick or a concrete block may not be able to think anymore.

But your former professional colleagues, lawyers: prosecutors, judges, investigators.

What happened to the rule of law, to the legal mechanism, to educated, supposedly intelligent people?

- But a certain number of employees of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the courts, the prosecutor's office, and the Ministry of Internal Affairs resigned then.

Those who remained went to some kind of "gesheft" with their conscience.

If you don't understand what you're doing, that's one thing.

If you are educated and understand that you are doing something illegal, if you judge a person for wearing socks of the wrong color based on the information of a witness in a balaclava with a made-up name, you are deliberately doing something illegal, you understand that you are doing it consciously.

This is not a mistake.

This is a crime.

And of course, in the future, when there will be changes, they will have to suffer the punishment.

- But most of the security forces, employees of investigative bodies, judges, and prosecutors are "dirty" and have something to do with repression and violence.

- As Nautilus Pompilius once sang: "The circular bond blows like soot."

This is how it is done: it was very important for the government to smear everyone so that they would not run away, that they would have no other way out, then they would be with it until the end.

- And what will happen to all of them later, you, as a lawyer by education, can you tell?

Will it be possible to change this entire judiciary-prosecutor-police penal apparatus?

- You know, let me make a "disclaimer": I was a lawyer 20 years ago.

Yes, the education remained, but I cannot speak as a lawyer.

I will say as a man.

Undoubtedly, it will not be possible to change everyone in one fell swoop. I against collective responsibility.

Every criminal case has a name and a surname.

You can't be all under one roof.

Yes, we will be forced to find the facts, find the people involved, assess each person's contribution according to their merits, and punish them.

Only so.

Everyone individually, everyone has a personal responsibility.

And not all together.

Then it will be in the legal field.

"Belarus has survived two occupations in the last two years"

- And how long can this prank in Belarus last?

- Oh, what you are asking - no one knows.

If earlier we tried to analyze and predict something, then these changes - the war in Ukraine - complicated and confused everything.

Belarus has experienced two occupations in the last two years.

The first is a gang that seized power.

The second is Russia, which has captured and controls the perimeter.

In my opinion, not so much depends on Lukashenka himself now, as it did before the war.

Vladimir Pugach

- Many Belarusians now have hopes only for Ukraine.

They say, if Ukraine wins the war, Belarus will win immediately.

The government in Belarus will change immediately.

Do you allow such a possibility - that Putin's regime will collapse in Russia, and everything will immediately change in Belarus?

- I do not see such a direct, direct dependence.

I would say that the situation in Belarus now depends very much on the situation in the Kremlin, in Russia.

After all, what is happening in Belarus today is greatly influenced by Russia.

Something must change in Russia so that it does not influence Belarus in such a way.

And this may change depending on the outcome of the war.

I do not see opportunities for radical changes in Belarus when there is a war.

- And yet we will return in 2020.

In summer and autumn, there was such euphoria, such exaltation, so many people marched.

What, in your opinion, did Belarusians lack then?

- I don't know.

I am against such an approach that if there were not 300,000 of us, but 500,000, then everything would have changed.

- What if we stood and didn't leave?

- I don't know.

It seems to me that nothing depended on the number of people who came out.

Because people stood without weapons.

And the security forces were with weapons.

And, as it turned out, they were ready to use this weapon.

In my opinion, thank God that it turned out that way, because if armed protests had started, many people would have died.

There would be blood.

There would be a civil war.

I don't know if it would be better.

And now we already know in retrospect that Putin was preparing for war and that the staging area in Belarus was very important for him.

Now I don't doubt for a second that he would have sent troops into Belarus: his internal troops, the Russian Guard, and it would have been even worse.

As he said, "history does not know conventional order."

They got what they got.

But what we won, what I see as our victory, is that the Belarusian society has matured a little, it was able to unite, learn mutual aid, it was able to understand that you cannot solve your personal problems without solving the problems of society.

This is such a first step, an evolutionary step for the development of Belarusian society.

"Thank God that Belarusians have woken up!"

- Don't you think that this society woke up too late?

It slept for 28 years.

- This is how it happened: when the Soviet Union collapsed, each country went its own way.

In Russia, there were "dangerous 1990s", in Ukraine it was something else, and Belarus remained a "reserve, where nothing changed."

Society was "preserved".

And during these almost 30 years of Lukashenka's rule, it was "asphalted" completely.

Political life in the country was atrophied, no new parties appeared, political competition disappeared.

All this started, in my opinion, in 1996, when the referendum on changing the Constitution took place.

Lukashenka took away all his powers, autocracy came.

Vladimir Pugach, archival photo

Here you are asking if we woke up late.

Thank God we woke up!

It is very difficult to define a starting point in history.

Why should we count from 1991?

Why not from 1917?

I am against this approach at all.

History does what it does to us.

And at this turn of 2020, it seemed to me that our society has gained experience that it has not had for many years.

With this experience, as with a weapon, it is more convenient to go further.

- But who should go?

I have the impression that part of it is sitting, and half of the active citizens of Belarus have left, and that Warsaw is already half Belarusian.

- I speak in the environment of Belarusians.

Apparently, I only speak Polish in "Bedronka".

As journalist Zmytser Lukashuk joked, "the language of procurement."

Yes, there are many Belarusians in Poland, and all of them have a history of social activism.

And in this environment it is easier for us to remain Belarusians.

We do not "dissolve" in Poles.

We remain Belarusians here.

And this is very important.

- Hypothetically imagine: changes will suddenly take place in Belarus.

Do you believe that all these Belarusians will return?

- Not all.

Obviously, not all.

It's not bad.

Someone will find love here, make a career, build a business, and that's normal.

I do not see a problem in this.

Modern society is built that way.

You can live in Belarus, then go to work in Holland, then in Germany.

It's normal.

Why not?

But, in my opinion, the majority of honest Belarusians still live in Belarus.

It just seems to us that everyone is here.

No, here is a minority, and there is a majority.

And there are enough people to revive Belarus, to make it something similar to a developed country.

Our people live there, not here.

Second, many will return.

I will definitely be back.

"The majority of responsible, honest Belarusians remain in Belarus"

— Now the musicians are all abroad: you, Levon Volsky, Aleksandar Pomidorov, Yuri Stylsky, NaviBand... Whom do Belarusians go to, what concerts?

On the sisters Gruzhdeva and Alexander Saladukha?

- Those Belarusians who remained in Belarus are in a situation that more and more resembles North Korea.

And the social and cultural life that was there before 2020 is no longer there.

That is why it is very difficult to live there psychologically (I am not talking about anything else, because economically as well).

I feel sorry for the Belarusians.

I guess by my friends, acquaintances, relatives who stayed there, by myself.

I came to Warsaw only in April 2022.

But until April 2022, I lived in Belarus!

It was very difficult psychologically.

But not everyone is ready to leave, and I am very grateful to those who stay.

I wish them patience.

After all, they will be the first to deal with restructuring when changes occur.

And the majority of responsible, honest Belarusians remain in Belarus.

Today they have to survive there.

People need to save themselves, save their family.

But we will also reach them.

We will help them.

J:mors concert, 2009

- Are our people able to replace all these Kachanovs, Karpiankovs, officials, security forces?

Will we have professionals, decent people?

- Well, how do we differ from other nations of Europe?

What do we have, less educated people?

Do they have a narrower worldview than Latvians, Poles or Icelanders?

No!

I look at the youth, at those who are 20-25, they are capable of many things.

The problem is that over the past 30 years in Belarus, the political culture, political institutions, civil society - the ground on which everything is based - has been completely destroyed.

People just exist.

But they will have to build everything from scratch - this whole structure, in which it will be comfortable and free to live.

That's the problem.

"For the time being, I came to Poland to visit the Belarusians to play concerts for them"

- Let's get back to music.

Was it possible to make money from music in Belarus?

- Yes.

It was possible until 2020.

But I'm not saying that it's because show business in Belarus was very well developed.

It seems to me that even then, few of the musicians earned money.

5-10 artists.

And this happened not because of show business, but against it.

But it was possible to earn money, we had opportunities.

- In Belarus, you were also included in the "black lists" of musicians banned from broadcasting?

- In 2006, yes, they were on the "black list", in 2010 - no.

And then in 2020.

- But were there any "rubbish" with the authorities?

Because sometimes it turned out quite strangely for you: sometimes you were blacklisted, sometimes you were invited to participate in election campaigns.

But you disagreed.

- Yes, I did not agree.

I have already said that I do not like politics.

And what happened in my life was, rather, some kind of social upheaval.

After all, politics is something else.

Politics is when you have a working system of political institutions that you manage.

What is happening now in Belarus is not politics, it is a system of survival.

— And in Poland, can you get your compositions on the FM airwaves, on television?

Is it possible for Belarusian musicians to integrate into Polish musical culture?

- I don't know.

First, you need to know the Polish language and decide for yourself that you want to integrate.

Maybe I could do it, but I didn't try.

Again, I return to the beginning of our conversation: for the time being, I came to Poland to visit the Belarusians to play concerts for them.

So far so.

If nothing changes in Belarus soon and I am forced to admit that I will stay here for a long time, then I will think about what to do next.

So far, these eight months that I have been here have not been enough for me to decide.

"I wish that in 2023 we turn the other way and all go back to Belarus"

- How do you feel here?

It happens that "covers"?

How do you survive?

- Well, of course, sometimes it "covers".

How to survive?

I decided for myself that you should do what you know how to do first.

And what people around you need.

I realized this back in 2020, when I was debating whether to release my new album "Hello" or not.

Released.

I received a lot of thanks, people said that they needed this kind of music at this time.

That's why we are writing new songs now, we released two releases over the summer.

We will make a new album by spring.

In the Ukrainian language, the song "Don't die" was released in February 2022 - so coincidentally.

We made it specially for the concert, which was planned for February 14 in Kyiv and which did not take place.

Then the war started.

And we issued it in support of Ukrainians.

So my advice: keep doing what you did before the war until 2020 and try to keep the feeling that you are part of society.

For me, the most dangerous thing that can happen to Belarusians is that we will lose the feeling that we are a people.

If we assimilate in Poland, Lithuania, and those who remained in Belarus assimilate with the Russians.

This is the worst thing.

Therefore, it is necessary to maintain relations, to strengthen ties.

This is very important.

Levon Volsky and Vladimir Pugach, 2020

- How did your loved ones react to the fact that you left?

- Relatives supported.

This is very important.

I was very lucky with my parents.

My dad is already over 70. And although he is from an older generation, he is not from the one in which BT remains the main source of information.

He mastered YouTube a long time ago.

He is very intelligent, very active and always up to date.

He and I have approximately the same views on life.

I was lucky - there are no people in my environment who would support the war in Ukraine.

My daughter Volya is 28. I am very proud of her.

She will promote video, shoot advertising, commercial and social.

- Can you compare yourself at 28 and your daughter at 28?

- I am far from her.

I think she is more mature.

Thoughts, opinions, attitude to the world, worldview are more sober than mine when I was 28. She is very talented, she has very good taste, she is too capable, she is very appreciated at work.

She has a very successful career.

And as a person she is very kind and very brave.

— What are your hopes for the new year 2023?

— So that in 2023 we don't say: "Oh, it seemed to us that everything was bad in 2020-2022, but now it's even worse!".

So that we don't say that.

Because, starting with covid, everything is worse and worse.

It seemed that covid was the end of the world.

After what happened in 2020, everyone has already forgotten about covid.

And when the war started, everyone already forgot what happened in 2020.

I want to wish everyone that in 2023 we turn the other way and go back to Belarus.

I constantly have the feeling that I am here temporarily, not for long.